---

... No I don't, slavery was an issue since it began, you're saying it didn't become an issue until the civil war was almost over? What are you smoking? I know my history and I have no idea where you learned yours but at least go look something up before making a statement that obviously has no founding in reality.

---

Why again did Lincoln offer to pass a Constitutional amendment to make slavery protected forever?

Why again was it that slavery was legal in the USA before during and after the war?

-------
whoisabs i'm not sure
Guess who's back?

---

http://shs.westport.k12.ct.us/jwb/collab/leadandpower/full_preconceptions_notes.htm

---

What kind of retard made that page?

Someone needs to understand what the term chronology means.

-------
whoisabs i'm not sure
Guess who's back?

---

... No I don't, slavery was an issue since it began, you're saying it didn't become an issue until the civil war was almost over? What are you smoking? I know my history and I have no idea where you learned yours but at least go look something up before making a statement that obviously has no founding in reality.

---

Slavery did not become a justification for the war that started in 1861 until 1863.

-------
whoisabs i'm not sure
Guess who's back?

---

Quote: from ranman at 10:33 pm on Aug. 26, 2008

---

... No I don't, slavery was an issue since it began, you're saying it didn't become an issue until the civil war was almost over? What are you smoking? I know my history and I have no idea where you learned yours but at least go look something up before making a statement that obviously has no founding in reality.

---

Why again did Lincoln offer to pass a Constitutional amendment to make slavery protected forever?

Why again was it that slavery was legal in the USA before during and after the war?

---

To your first question: bullshit, unless you show me your source.

Actually slavery was not legal in the US after the war, you see there was this document called the 13th Amendment. Slave ownership by private individuals and businesses has been illegal in the United States since 1865, coincidentally the year the civil war ended hmmm... I wonder what that could mean?T he Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution specifically exempts the judiciary, permitting the enslavement of individuals "as a punishment for crime where of the party shall have been duly convicted". That's the only possible thing you could be talking about for slavery "after the war"

As for during the war, the emancipation proclamation was passed "freeing" all the slaves in the south, though not the border states.

Please enlighten me.

-------
If you need any help with any language
especially French, English, or German, let me know...

Also, SLAVERY was a justification for the war! Was it the sole cause? Of course not! It was probably the MAIN cause though. THE argument was over the expansion of slavery into the western territories? Have you ever heard of bleeding kansas? Nebraska? The dread scott decision?

Post edited at 10:58 pm on Aug. 26, 2008 by ranman

-------
If you need any help with any language
especially French, English, or German, let me know...

In 1861 Lincoln's stated goal was to save the Union, and he offered this as a means of doing exactly that.  Especially since in the 1850s and even in 1861 nobody was trying to seriously abolish slavery, but instead the fight was over expanding slavery into the western territories, especially the southwestern territories obtained via the war with Mexico.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo104.html

Also, the 13th amendment that was passed was passed in December 1865, but the war had ended in April of 1865.

Funny that slavery was legal in the USA up until 8 months after the war was over, thus proving my point that slavery was legal in the USA before during and after the war.  In fact the only reason that the 13th amendment was even ratified was because the Republicans forced the southern states to ratify it under duress, thus making it illegal from the start.

All in all it appears that you have no idea of what you're talking about.

-------
whoisabs i'm not sure
Guess who's back?

---

Yes but this person is arguing that slavery wasn't an issue before the war. That's idiocy, I can read you a hundred Primary Source documents that refute that premise.

Also, SLAVERY was a justification for the war! Was it the sole cause? Of course not! It was probably the MAIN cause though. THE argument was over the expansion of slavery into the western territories? Have you ever heard of bleeding kansas? Nebraska? The dread scott decision?

---

Do you have any clue as to where Kansas and Kebraska are located on a map?

If Lincoln would have come out in 1861 and declared a war on the CSA because of slavery there would have been a mutiny because nobody in the north would have fought a war to free the slaves.  In fact many people in the north approved of slavery as that kept the poor blacks in the south, and didn't give them the chance to move up north and compete with the whites for jobs.  Places such as the northwestern territories even past laws against free blacks existing wtihin their borders.

-------
whoisabs i'm not sure
Guess who's back?

---

The origional 13th amendment was one that would have made slavery a Constitutionally protected institution.

In 1861 Lincoln's stated goal was to save the Union, and he offered this as a means of doing exactly that. Especially since in the 1850s and even in 1861 nobody was trying to seriously abolish slavery, but instead the fight was over expanding slavery into the western territories, especially the southwestern territories obtained via the war with Mexico.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo104.html

Also, the 13th amendment that was passed was passed in December 1865, but the war had ended in April of 1865.

Funny that slavery was legal in the USA up until 8 months after the war was over, thus proving my point that slavery was legal in the USA before during and after the war. In fact the only reason that the 13th amendment was even ratified was because the Republicans forced the southern states to ratify it under duress, thus making it illegal from the start.

All in all it appears that you have no idea of what you're talking about.

---

I'll not even bother with your first link and just point out that it references a document that doesn't exist, selectively quotes, and outright lies. The quote you're talking about for where slavery would be a constitutionally protected institution is referencing the right of states to enlist criminals or prisoners to do labor.

First of all as of the Emancipation Proclimation in 1863, the slaves in the south WERE free. The thirteenth amendment started the political process BEFORE the war began. The Senate passed it on April 8, 1864, by a vote of 38 to 6. Although they initially rejected the amendment, the House of Representatives passed it on January 31, 1865, by a vote of 119 to 56. President Abraham Lincoln signed a Joint Resolution, February 1, 1865, and submitted the proposed amendment to the states for ratification. Secretary of State William Henry Seward issued a statement verifying the ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment on December 18, 1865.

This is called Bureaucracy, and the amendment was already in effect when the secretary of state "verified" it.

After the war the states weren't even states, they were military districts until they agreed to elect unbiased officials, and accept the amended constitution. Do you have a problem with that? Are you saying that it's illegal for states that joined the union to have to agree to certain terms first? I don't understand your point about being "forced" to agree to it... yes they were... that's the point. What are you trying to say with that?

-------
If you need any help with any language
especially French, English, or German, let me know...

Georgia

---

The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation.

For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic.

---

Approved, Tuesday, January 29, 1861

Mississippi

---

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.  

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun.  

These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

---

[Copied by Justin Sanders from "Journal of the State Convention", (Jackson, MS: E. Barksdale, State Printer, 1861), pp. 86-88]

South Carolina

---

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States.  

Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

---

Adopted December 24, 1860

Texas

---

Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people.  

She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy.

---

Adopted in Convention on the 2nd day of Feby, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-one and of the independence of Texas the twenty-fifth.  

Looks pretty much like it was all about slavery from the beginning.

Post edited at 11:21 pm on Aug. 26, 2008 by jakelong

-------
"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

Post edited at 11:20 pm on Aug. 26, 2008 by jakelong

-------
"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

---

Quote: from ranman at 10:56 pm on Aug. 26, 2008

---

Yes but this person is arguing that slavery wasn't an issue before the war. That's idiocy, I can read you a hundred Primary Source documents that refute that premise.  

 Also, SLAVERY was a justification for the war! Was it the sole cause? Of course not! It was probably the MAIN cause though. THE argument was over the expansion of slavery into the western territories? Have you ever heard of bleeding kansas? Nebraska? The dread scott decision?

---

Do you have any clue as to where Kansas and Kebraska are located on a map?

If Lincoln would have come out in 1861 and declared a war on the CSA because of slavery there would have been a mutiny because nobody in the north would have fought a war to free the slaves. In fact many people in the north approved of slavery as that kept the poor blacks in the south, and didn't give them the chance to move up north and compete with the whites for jobs. Places such as the northwestern territories even past laws against free blacks existing wtihin their borders.

---

Stop with the ad hominem kid.

ahhhhhhhhhhh.... Lincoln WENT IN TO SAVE THE UNION you said it yourself! WTF are you talking about?, when South Carolina seceded war began. Yes I agree there would have been a mutiny. You're arguing something completely different and if you would actually read my post you'd understand that.

The northwestern territories didn't pass any laws because they were territories. They wanted to become states though and there was a rush by free soilers, abolitionists and southerners to become the voting majority (it took 60,000 (although that figure varies depending on which text you read, and in a presidential debate someone douglas said 93,000) to become a state).

What do you mean no one in the north would have supported him if he'd done that?

THE ABOLITIONIST MOVEMENT. Let's use Google and learn something today huh?

Before you decided to have another logical fallacy I'm not saying the following things:
Lincoln wanted slavery to end instantly
Everyone in the north was opposed to slavery
The war was over slavery in the north and south only.
The war was over slavery in general only.
The war wasn't at all over slavery.

Things I am saying:
The war was mostly over the expansion of slavery into the western territories and the clashing ideologies of the northern and southern states.
Lincoln did not go in with the mind set of abolishing slavery completely although he did support the abolitionist movement.

Start arguing the point and not some tangent.

And no, I don't know where "Kebraska" is.


-------
If you need any help with any language
especially French, English, or German, let me know...